| Post by VE2PID on 13th August 2012 at 14:32 |
Hello to all
One of the local rule here says that a maximum distance of 25 meters below a summit is admissible for an activation. But if that rule is used (if we are 25m or less vert from a summit), then, what is the maximum horizontal distance admissible from that same summit? If it not defined, it would mean that any neighboring mountain could be used (HI)?
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| Post by G1INK on 13th August 2012 at 14:47 |
In reply to VE2PID:
From the general rules:-
Vertical Distance
The maximum permitted drop in height at any point along the straight line between the Summit and the Operating Position. |
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| Post by G8ADD on 13th August 2012 at 15:03 |
In reply to VE2PID:
No horizontal distance is defined, in this country we have some plateau-type summits where the activation zone, the minus 25 metres contour from the summit, has an area measured in square miles. At the other extreme we have at least one summit that no more than a few people would fit onto at any one time, and its no place for vertigo sufferers!
If the rules are obeyed no neighbouring mountain could be used unless the col was less than 25 metres below the activated summit!
73
Brian G8ADD |
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| Post by G0IBE on 13th August 2012 at 16:00 |
In reply to G1INK:
"in a straight line". That is an interesting complication to the rule that I hadnt realised before. It just so happens that I had been reading up on Gisborough Moor recently. This has the main top in square NZ6312 at a height of 329M, with a subsidiary top 1.9km to the NW at a height of 324M. There is a ridge connecting the two, curving slightly, with both summits and the ridge being wholly enclosed by the 310M contour. Hence I thought the NW top would be well within the activation zone.
However, if a straight line is plotted between the two tops, the lowest point on the straight line falls outside of the 300M contour; my version of Memory Map showing the lowest point as 298M. Therefore the NW top is outside of the activation zone.
Even more interestingly (if you are pedantic or like mathematical curiosities), you could pick a point say 200M west of the NW top (and about 14M below it), for which a straight line to the main SE top doesnt fall below 304M, (actually about 309M).
Is that what was really intended? Without in any way wishing to start an argument (as I think the group who originally formulated the rules did a very good job), I would be interested in knowing why the word straight was put in the rule.
Richard
G0IBE |
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| Post by G7LAS on 13th August 2012 at 16:21 |
In reply to G0IBE:
Not wishing to add to any (non-existent) argument ;)))
I'd of thought the straight-line to be straight when viewed from above only and in the other plane for it to be along the ground.
At least, that makes the most sense to me and I think to be the only way you could have the rule at all.
You draw a straight line on a map between the summit (point A) and your operating position (point B). Any decrease in height against the height of the summit, exceeding 25m, *along* that "straight line" would make that operating position (Point B) invalid.
All the best,
Rob G7LAS |
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| Post by G7LAS on 13th August 2012 at 16:29 |
In reply to G7LAS:
And don't even get me started about the fact that we're all modelling this on a hypothetically flat earth in the first place! ;))) |
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| Post by M0DFA on 13th August 2012 at 16:43 |
In reply to G7LAS:
Surely, the essence of the argument is that there must be a route from the actual summit to the operating point that remains in the operating area, ie, within 25M of the summit. You have no need to use that route, or even go via the summit, to reach your chosen operating point.
In the dim and distant past, my maths master (Mr Dyne - no word of a lie) demonstrated the Calculus by treating a curve (function known) as being made up of a series of straight lines. This defeats the use of the word 'straight' in the argument.
Tom can now put me and my memory in their proper place.
Regards, Dave, G6DTN |
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| Post by M1EYP on 13th August 2012 at 16:51 |
You (and your memory) are in the correct place Dave AFAIAC! And yes, the intention of the activation zone rule is that you describe. I wasn't aware that the vertical separation definition in the General Rules still mentioned a "straight line". I thought that had been dealt with.
Tom MO1EYP
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| Post by G8ADD on 13th August 2012 at 18:04 |
In reply to M1EYP:
And yes, the intention of the activation zone rule is that you describe. I
> wasn't aware that the vertical separation definition in the General
> Rules still mentioned a "straight line". I thought that had been
> dealt with.
>
> Tom MO1EYP
>
We have redefined a few things, Tom, but I don't think the new definitions have been applied yet.
I've always thought that the "straight line" bit was utter nonsense, anyway. Take the hypothetical case of activating a volcano, even if the whole rim of the crater is within 25 metres of the summit height, a straight line to any position not adjacent to the highest point would be crossing a void. Come to think of it, many of our British hills have quite serpentine ridge lines and a straight line path would be - shall we say a little eccentric? The obvious case (at least, to me!) is the Inaccessible pinnacle on Skye, where the summit of Sgurr Dearg is within the activation zone by virtue of also being enclosed by the -25 metre contour, but a straight line between the two summits crosses a void whilst a simple track with a right angle bend takes you from the foot of the short side of the In Pin to the summit of the Sgur with no need for hand work!
73
Brian G8ADD |
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| Post by G1INK on 13th August 2012 at 19:55 |
In reply to G8ADD:
To put it in laymans terms - if you can walk from the summit to the operating position without descending more than 25m (50m in the Alps) the operation is ok.
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| Post by G0IBE on 15th August 2012 at 21:57 |
So just to close this topic off, is the rule going to be amended to be a little more as people interpret it, when the rules are next revised?
Thanks
Richard
G0IBE |
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| Post by G8ADD on 16th August 2012 at 07:40 |
In reply to G0IBE:
In fact the revision had been prepared a while ago and is only awaiting an opportunity to update the rules. The revision (in my usual intricate prose, I'm afraid!) defines the activation zone (AZ) which is a term that came into use after the rules were first written. Also awaiting an opportunity to be incorporated is an FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) file for the website.
These things tend to be pushed to the back of the queue because the priority (as I think all would agree) is getting new Associations online.
73
Brian G8ADD
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| Post by F5UBH on 16th August 2012 at 08:53 |
In reply to VE2PID:
In my sense and I do like that...
If I'm going to activate "Pic de Gleize" I can drop to the top without problems... So "La Cuquere" is just down of it but not the same mountain so I don't activate it from "Pic de Gleize" Mountain, I interprete the Rules like 25 m but from the Mountain !!! Not an another... So You go to the "Mont-Blanc" and activate which-one you want !!!
No really it's 25 m in the same Mountain... Not Mountain X to activate Mountain Y it's a NON-SENSE... No ??? |
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